Chapter 14 – Debate with experts and general discussion
p. 323-341
Texte intégral
1Moderator : Jean Clottes
2Experts : Benjamin W. Smith, Mounir Bouchenaki, Margaret Conkey, Christophe Gauchon, Yann‑Pierre Montelle, Michaël Petzet
3[ The interventions in italic were translated from French to English ]
4Mr. Jean Clottes
5This afternoon, we will talk not only about Lascaux Cave, but also about caves in Spain and about what we have been told concerning the preservation of caves in the Cantabrian Mountains. I might have a few questions about the preservation of the decorated caves that are open to the public elsewhere than in the mountains as well. For example, there are caves in Andalusia where there are great conservation problems. In the Cantabrian Mountains, whether in the caves of the Basque Country, Cantabria or the Asturias, the situation is under control and things are generally going well.
6I remember visiting Pileta Cave in Andalusia a few years ago, and I was rather shocked, for example, to see that people still visited it using carbide lamps. I do not know whether this is still the case; it is a private cave, but it is also a cave that belongs to this ensemble of international heritage. This was also done in France and I fought for years so that it would be stopped in Niaux Cave; we are hardly in a position to criticize others. Today, now that we are more familiar with the problems, it’s still somewhat shocking. All the same, at Nerja Cave, which I remember visiting, I spoke to some colleagues after lunch who said that they had fewer visitors in this year than in the preceding year, only 480,000 in comparison with more than 500,000 the year before. I think that this is the most frequently visited decorated cave in the world.
7Mr. Roberto Ontañón Peredo
8I spoke about what I know best. I know some cases in other parts of Spain that have many problems. This is true for Pileta Cave, which truly is a particular case in Spain, since it is one of only a few private caves. I think that the legislation concerning the use of mines dates from the 1920’s, and the family that owns the cave registered the property before the legislation came into force, so the cave has remained its property. Managing Pileta Cave is a real problem for the Andalusian Cultural Department, because the authorities are trying to control all of this.
9Nerja is another problem, since it is a cave that is exploited by a sort of foundation. It is a tourist cave with rock art, but the real touristic interest of the cave is not the art, but the cave itself, which is truly enormous. Tourists do not see the rock art, which is on another side of the cave, but they pose a real problem for the environmental balance of the site. I know that there are some environmental studies being conducted. It may be said that they are in the process of controlling the situation, but it is difficult.
10In the Cantabrian region, the pressure of tourism on decorated caves was very great, for example at Altamira, which is now under control. Some other caves with rock art are open to the public, from the fifties. We can now say that their management is more or less under control.
11Mr. Jean Clottes
12Thank you Roberto. Meg?
13Ms. Meg Conkey
14Thank you Jean, and to everyone at the origin of this symposium, which brings transparency to a great deal of extremely instructive work that we can all learn from. My name is Meg Conkey. I am on the faculty of the Department of Anthropology at the University of California at Berkeley.
15Mr. Yann-Pierre Montelle
16I am a Franco-New Zealander. I do not wish to abuse, but I wrote a short text a few minutes ago, which I would like to read rather quickly. This year, we celebrate Darwin’s bicentenary, the anniversary of an idea that I believe is completely fortuitous in the context of our discussions. You will have realized that I am talking about adaptation. Several times, the experts have proven to us that at in Lascaux we do not eradicate, but we adapt.
17Randall White speaks of a disaster. I have also heard talk of a debacle or fiasco. I would speak only of a malaise, a malaise that is not growing on the walls of Lascaux, that has nothing to do with microbes and that is not found in karstic fractures. This malaise is the difficulty that some have in adapting to the type of interdisciplinary scientific thinking that creates a modus operandi in which propositions based on complex modeling complement the diverse expertise of a sometimes disorganized scientific group. I think this malaise was defined perfectly yesterday by Jean-Jacques Delannoy when he told us that “different actions yesterday and today have shown that, whatever the approach, be it hydroclimatic, microbiological or heritage related, it now seems necessary, even imperative, to develop an interdisciplinary, rather than multidisciplinary, approach, and to develop a new research community focusing on the subterranean environment, and more particularly, on decorated caves”.
18In the same way that we must not halt the microbial process that is endemic to the karst system, it seems to me that we must not curb the scientific and experimental endeavors that are underway, simply because they bring us face to face with our own ignorance. So thank you to Jean and to all the organizers for this lesson in transparency and dissemination for the international community.
19Thank you.
20Mr. Benjamin Smith
21Again thank you very much. I am Benjamin Smith. I work in South Africa at the Rock Art Research Institute. South Africa is a country that has plenty of caves, very beautiful show-caves, but our caves do not have paintings in them. Our rock art is all in exposed settings. I was thinking about where my expertise would lie and would be relevant to this symposium. I think probably there are two aspects that we have been hearing about over the last two days. There is the technical side and the social side. In many respects what we have been hearing is very strong and I have been immensely impressed on the technical side: the number of teams working, the amount of data collected. Perhaps not always an ability to mesh those data so that one can get a clear picture from the multiple research teams working in the cave, but nonetheless an absolutely world class effort in terms of getting a grip on the basics of what is going on in the cave. On the social side, I think that we had a greater degree of implicitness and it has been talked about how management decisions get made, who makes the decisions, who is empowered to make the decisions, who takes responsibility for making the decisions. The social side I think has been more implicit and it is probably on this social side that South Africa has the greatest experience and perhaps where South Africa can contribute. We have heard a lot of metaphors over the last two days about patients and diseases. With sicknesses, obviously any doctor will say there is a very large psychological side, if not to the sicknesses itself then to the cause of the sickness. I think that the social side or the psychological side is important and it is probably something that we should be probing in this final section.
22If I can make a few comments about this, what are in this case the psychological aspects and what are the social aspects of the problem? They of course lie in issues of management: who makes decisions, but also who has the right to criticize, who has the right to change decisions? These are exceptionally difficult questions, particularly in a landscape as explosive as Lascaux. We are dealing here with the most famous painted cave in the world and looking from South Africa, I am not envious of my colleagues who had to deal with the situation. The question then is: how one would create a management process that is more inclusive. We have heard a lot about this process and people seem very pleased that this process is happening. This surprises me somewhat because this kind of process seems to me absolutely essential; people from many different backgrounds, not just the scientists, must get together to discuss the problem of Lascaux. I think this is perhaps a lesson to learn from South Africa. Since the liberation in 1994, management has been almost completely turned around to where the scientists no longer control the process, but they are very much involved in the process. What the scientists have found is that by listening to a broader range of stakeholders, not only do those stakeholders become more aware of the scientific processes and the values of what scientists can and do bring to conservation, but the scientists also have quite a lot to learn. Scientists can learn of how society values the heritage of a place like Lascaux and how scientists need to respond. It is the intangible values of a place like Lascaux that need to be managed, and that need to be controlled. But ultimately they can explode in the press if they are not managed carefully. Therefore, I think a form of inclusive management, like we have seen today where lots of people can feed in and also take back the information and communicate it, is a much better way to go than the temptation that someone like myself as a scientist may have to keep control, and the maintaining of information processes in the hands of the experts. I would like to applaud what Jean Clottes and Jean-Michel Geneste have done here. I think that this is absolutely the right way to go. I hope and I think I have experienced the sense that this process will be a two-way learning process, not just from the scientists to the public, but actually very much a two-way process.
23Mr. Mounir Bouchenaki
24I would like to follow on from my South African colleague, first thanking my colleagues and friends at the Ministry of Culture. I would like to start by reminding you that we are here, as Ms. Albanel said yesterday, because the international community is moved by the situation that has prevailed at Lascaux. I was fortunate enough to be in Quebec last year at the World Heritage Committee when the subject of Lascaux was presented. I have two colleagues here from UNESCO who participated in that Committee. Mr. Francesco Bandarin, Director of the World Heritage Center, asked me to pass on his apologies to you because UNESCO is holding an international workshop on the future of the 1972 Convention at the same time. Ms. Mechtild Rossler, the Chief of the Europe Section at the World Heritage Center is here, as well as Ms. Nuria Sanz, the Chief of the Latin America Section.
25Why has this subject reached UNESCO? First because the site is registered on the World Heritage List, and because under the 1972 Convention there is a shared responsibility: the responsibility of the State (France, in the case of Lascaux) and the responsibility of the international community, which has decided to consider Lascaux as the property of the whole of humanity. It is true that this has been an absolutely exemplary session because we have had the opportunity to listen to French experts who are working in minute detail on both climatic and microbiological problems, conservationists, etc. We are fortunate to be in a country that has structures, experts, universities and research centers, and it has not been necessary to hastily say, “Oh, the site is in danger, it has to be put on the List of World Heritage in Danger”. I think we are far from such a situation since two days of presentations have shown us that, of course, the situation has been acknowledged, but this situation being carefully monitored by the experts.
26As someone who has been a UNESCO official for a long time and who is currently an ICCROM official, I must say first of all how sensitive I am to the fact that there are at least 12 nationalities represented at this seminar, in addition to the French. We have seen our friends from America, Great Britain, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, South Africa, etc. I think we have the will to go forward with this extremely complex approach and to ask some fundamental questions. There are still some areas that are unknown to scientists, who must therefore continue to help and to better understand this phenomenon of spreading algae and fungus and the colorings, in order to define why and how. But at the same time, as a conservationist, I must say that we must not continue with our arms crossed, and I must pay tribute to the work of Isabelle Pallot-Frossard, her colleagues and conservationists, as well as Mr. Geneste. We must continue with basic research and efforts to understand the phenomena, as well as determining how specifically to act. This morning, we considered the Japanese experience and comments from the Japanese who are facing situations that could be considered similar and who have chosen the solution of removal.
27They have done what UNESCO advocated in the 1960’s for Abu Simbel. The temple was dismantled and then rebuilt 100 meters higher up. This cannot be done at Lascaux. We are not in the same type of situation, so we have to find solutions that can be adapted the conditions of Lascaux.
28I think we must continue along this twofold path of theoretical and practical action. We have to work according to the known principles of ICOMOS—and we are lucky in this regard to have with us Professor Petzet, the Honorary President of ICOMOS, who was titular President until a few months ago. The ICOMOS charters, from the Venice Charter of 1964 until the most recent ones, advocate minimal intervention and ensure that this property cannot be treated in just any way, but I think these ideas are givens.
29Multidisciplinarity, interdisciplinarity, and finally, coordination. In each situation in which UNESCO has demonstrated its ability to ensure that properties of great value are saved, Angkor and the Medina of Fez, for example, it has been through coordination, and I would like to acknowledge the presence here of Her Excellency the Ambassador of Morocco, who is particularly interested in heritage issues.
30I would like to conclude by saying that one of the actions in which UNESCO has demonstrated its ability to bring together researchers and practitioners has been the Carthage campaign. I personally followed the development of this campaign to protect the site of Carthage. There were researchers and heads of archaeological teams who work very well, but each in their own field. The contribution of UNESCO was to establish an international coordination committee and a documentation center where all the data was gathered and made accessible to everyone. An annual meeting allowed all the team heads to meet, exchange their results, and see how they could all contribute elements of their experience, as well as results that would allow progress to be made.
31I think that what you have just done is in a small part of this work; making a complete review of all the problems that everyone is facing, because there is no shame in saying that something is going badly, while at the same time calling upon all of these competencies and expertise. There are two eminent members of the ICCROM Council here, Ms. Isabelle Pallot-Frossard and Professor Stefan Simon, as well as Mr. Gaël de Guichen, who incidentally also started his career at Lascaux. ICCROM is thus at your disposal, as it is for other international projects.
32Mr. Christophe Gauchon
33I am a geographer, and I am particularly interested in subterranean heritage in general. I would like to return to some points that have just been brought up by my neighbor, and with which I largely agree. It is true that the presentations we have heard since yesterday morning prove, it seems to me, that we are not at all in a situation of heritage in danger. Even if, in my opinion, some excessively strong words have been used, I do not think that we have a collective interest in verbal escalation. While no one can deny the problems and the fact that they will require the most effective solutions possible, in this context, it is not clear what benefit there would be in dramatizing the situation. When we look at the “List of World Heritage in Danger”, we must recognize that Lascaux Cave is not in that type of situation at all: a country at war, a country where the public authorities are notoriously deficient, and often over a very long time. All the effort and resources that have been devoted to this site, as well as the reflections in which we have participated during this symposium, prove that we are in a completely different situation.
34This is not the least of the lessons to be learned from this symposium, which was also intended to make us reflect on the very nature of this heritage resource constituted of a painted cave as prestigious as Lascaux.
35Historically, if we consider the protective measures that have been applied to decorated and painted caves in France since we became concerned with providing legal and regulatory protection, since 1901 or 1902, they have been classified as historic monuments. This is the protective regulatory category in which they are classified. This was the case for Lascaux in December 1940, three months after its discovery. In the same way, when the Vézère caves were registered on the UNESCO World Heritage List in 1979, they were also registered in the category of cultural property.
36It seems to me that everything we have heard since yesterday morning forces us to rethink this way of considering painted caves. It is clear to me that it is these paintings that give the cave a special heritage value. That cannot be denied. At the same time, it is perhaps a somewhat limiting to consider them simply as historic monuments. In doing so, we subordinate or put aside another dimension, which is at least as important, that of a natural monument. In this respect, the talk this morning about the tumulus in Japan was extremely educational, because this is a property that was a pure artifact. Methods, means and principles different from those used in a cave were applied.
37When I put the registration of Lascaux on the World Heritage List, thirty years ago, into perspective, and when I see something today that can be considered comparable, Chauvet Cave, which is on the World Heritage Tentative List, and which is designated solely as a cultural property, following the same criteria 1 and 3, but with great attention paid in the statement of significance to the natural environment and the geology—meaning that this idea is not ignored—but it is still an element of the environment. I think that in actual fact, the natural dimension of these properties goes beyond the environmental element. It is a constituent element of a decorated cave, which is both a cultural and a natural property.
38Interdisciplinary studies and contributions by various people must lead us in this direction, towards a review of the vision we have of these heritage elements, so that we may both better understand and protect them.
39Mr. Jean Clottes
40I would like to comment on what you have just said. I completely agree with you as a specialist of decorated caves and prehistoric art, because when we consider rock art in the world, we see that the environment plays a vital role everywhere. We do not understand the paintings and engravings outside their environment. When sacred stories are attached to them, we see the point to which the environment counts in the selection of these locations for the realization of drawings. In many cases (I can recall some experiences in Australia and elsewhere), the environment is even more important than the paintings. I remember seeing a site in the middle of Australia, in a place where there were lots of air currents. There was a tree whose branches struck the paintings and damaged them. A colleague who was working with the Aborigines asked them whether it would bother them if we cut the tree or the branches so as not to damage the paintings. She had reacted just as we conservationists would. Well, these people were completely— excuse me the Languedoc term comes to mind—“flabbergasted”. The question was absolutely ridiculous for them because according to their beliefs, the spirits of the dead are embodied in the trees, and especially in the places where there is rock art.
41It is therefore clear that the environment is extremely important. When we spoke about Chauvet Cave, we all said that we must pay attention because there is not only the cave, but also the environment, that very likely constitutes some of the meaning that we can attribute to this cave.
42Mr. Mounir Bouchenaki
43I would like to share with you an experience that I have had. We hosted Aborigines from Australia and organized a seminar at UNESCO to see how these Aborigines interpreted rock paintings. We then organized a visit for Aborigines from Australia to Lascaux, about fifteen years ago. Before going inside, they first wanted to build a fire outside, because for them it was not simply a matter of visiting the caves, but of connecting with the source of this art, of finding an element that is now called “intangible heritage”, these intangible values that are added to the purely material value of the object and which, in some way, we make sacred, and which also has a social value.
44Mr. Michaël Petzet
45Thank you. It is a great honour to participate in this conference. Naturally, we all agree on everything. You have said that it is also now a matter of the spirit of the place. This is something we have not spoken about here. This is very important. I would like to ask our Japanese colleagues, for example, what we should do about the spirit of the place after all these exercises. It is a very difficult question.
46I am a former Conservator General in Bavaria and a former president of ICOMOS International. We have established a committee, the Rock Art Committee, Stone Committee, and conducted a large study on what is called OUV (Outstanding Universal Value). Lascaux Cave was registered in 1979. Criterion one is that the site must represent a unique artistic achievement, a masterpiece of human genius; criterion three is that it must be a unique testimony to a civilization that has disappeared. So the issue is that we must preserve and protect these values. We do not have to protect a laboratory for exercises in biology. The issue is to protect this place. There is of course legal protection, but the conservation and a practical approach to conservation is also very important. I am very happy and I congratulate the French in general for this institution: LRMH. This morning the presentation by Ms. Pallot-Frossard and her colleagues was excellent. I understood that my dreams of what should be done, to go back to the situation before 1942, for example, to this equilibrium and so on, is certainly not possible. We must react in a pluralistic manner and as much as possible, in parallel. Sometimes we must act immediately, and not wait indefinitely for a development. Sometimes, of course, it is important to do all of this research. Thank you for all of your work. Today, there is sometimes a danger: the question of non toccare was raised in one presentation. Many restorers simply make inspections in white shirts and declare: “Non toccare! ”. This is a good excuse to do nothing. Sometimes, especially in the particular case of Lascaux, we must do something. We must find the right balance.
47I think that in this symposium there is a lack of balance between the different scientific fields and alternative methods of conservation. The “army” of microbiologists present here clearly dominates. They always know what to do and what they want to do is research. There are divisions between the University professors; they have specific ideas but no ideas of conservation, and some of them of course are very good. I was very happy to hear our colleague Mr. Koestler. He not only defined the problems but also proposed solutions. At one point, he even suggested a solution for the black spots; it was astonishing. He did not explain how he got there but he had solutions and sometimes, unfortunately, we need solutions. I am not against endless research, but I am against a research when it paralyzes all activity, saying something like: “We must now to wait a few years.” Somebody said something about 2014. This is too far away. Concerning the question of management, what we need—I am also an old bureaucrat—is a strong central state authority. Mr. Clément makes the decisions; this is very important. Concerning this wonderful institution in Champs-sur-Marne, it should collect all this research data, but in the end someone must react to the problem. If all this is done, I think it is good. In this assembly, for example, there are not many art historians, and probably not so many archaeologists, but there must be somebody. The restorers should have had something to say; a wall painting restorer, for example, could have made a useful contribution.
48Finally I would like to say that I am optimistic. This site will be discussed in the next meeting of the World Heritage Committee; it probably will not be, I hope, on the list of sites in danger. Why? Because everything is being done to protect it, all that can be done at this time. One last remark, in Germany there was a “museum of molds” (Schimmelmuseum), maybe you do not know about this. It is recorded in our publication Heritage at Risk (ICOMOS World Report 2002/2003 on Munuments and Sites in Danger: 97). It was in Hamburg and it was the work of the famous modern artist Dieter Roth. The entire intallation consisted of nothing but chocolate and molds. It was destroyed and all that remains are pieces that were to be exposed in different museums. This museum no longer exists, but it be very interesting for all of our esteemed microbiologist colleagues. They might still find some traces on these museum pieces. Thank you very much for your attention.
49Ms. Meg Conkey
50Jean, I did not take advantage of my allocated time. As a woman I will thus have the last word. I was going to speak of the American experience. I am about to become the President of the Society for American Archaeology and I think that we are in a situation similar to that in South Africa where there are still living indigenous populations who have made us much more aware of the fact that none of our work as archaeologists or prehistorians can be done without external accountability. We must be accountable to many publics. It is unimaginable in a situation like that of Lascaux, a site that has a universal value and that is included on the World Heritage List, not be accountable to these publics, the interested publics and other stakeholders. I think that this is what has been accomplished in the symposium.
51The other word that I have not yet heard, but that I think is implied from what people have said, is “management”: we are the managers of this site and this management requires ethical rules. We have not really grappled with the ethics of conservation and management, or the development of such procedures. I would just briefly say that we are, or we will be, forced to develop these working methods, these protocols. It would be better for us to develop them from the ground up, relying on those of us who are involved in the work, in the cave, who contribute different perspectives, rather than having them imposed from the top down, by bureaucratic entities who are probably less familiar with the way we must work in order to be effective. For example, we must develop ways of thinking that will allow us to determine at what moment and in reference to what situations we step out of our familiar system and habitual practices to seek outside help. Do we have any protocols for the interventions that we all agree on here and that have already been realized? So I just wanted to make a couple of these points. If indeed as Jean Clottes, the President of this symposium, said, one of the goals of these two days is to present the situation, the knowledge, studies and the ways in which the work is being done, I would like to see, for example, all of the presentations on the Internet site tomorrow so that they will be accessible to the public. How can we use all of this in our efforts to manage and preserve not only Lascaux, but other decorated caves or similar sites as well? Thank you.
52Mr. Jean Clottes
53Thank you Meg. I could not agree more. I will just make one remark on what you said. I do not agree that the hard science specialists, as we could call them, are in a majority here; there are many archaeologists, but the subjects addressed yesterday and this morning are mostly related to hard sciences. The hard scientists spoke more than the people working in the field. This gives me the opportunity to allow others, especially archaeologists, to speak.
54Ms. Valérie Feruglio
55I am a parietal archaeologist. I would like to speak this morning because there has been a great deal of discussion about fungi and bacteria. It has been stated that some microorganisms are lithophagous and thus destroy the support that they are on. Do we now know what surface area has been affected by these lithophagous microorganisms? Has the surface of the lost ornamentation been measured? And even if it could be removed or eliminated mechanically or chemically, will the shadows of these black stains remain, even if we manage to remove the melanin? Have the engravings been destroyed?
56Mr. Jean-Michel Geneste
57I am not going to respond with regard to the appearance of the bacteria that degrade the limestone, since I am not a specialist at all. I think that, in the inventories that have been made by various people, at other caves and at this one, it is a small percentage.
58I do not think that there is currently 1 mm² of painting or other art that has been lost at Lascaux. I do not think that there has been any dramatic presentation up to now. On the other hand, it is true that in the zone where it is not possible to intervene, the fungi are deposited in areas where there are paintings. This is the case in the Passageway and the Nave. I have shown you a photo that I think is the most symbolic. Above the Black Cow frieze, we can clearly see the multiple colonizations that affect one level and reach the level of the head. The same black stains are probably found on the art works.
59When we speak about black stains, this is a phenomenon that sometimes consists of a small spot that is actually black, sometimes it is a grey ring and sometimes something we cannot yet see. There are therefore superpositions of a ring, a small stain or a dot on the paintings. This is what exists. I do not think we can speak of degradation, for the time being, there are no fungi there that alter or degrade the paintings or the support.
60Ms. Shirley Chesney
61I think I developed a passion for Lascaux when I was about 19 years old when I first read the first book by Max Raphaël and found out many years later that he was in New York. I invited him to my university. We showed Lascaux in a film called Lascaux: Cradle of Man’s Art. Afterward, he gave an interpretation that astounded a very multidisciplinary group. I cannot tell you how hopeful I feel seeing this sheer presence of people and the work that has been accomplished at this conference, especially in last few hours, and the sessions impatiently anticipated by a multidisciplinary team. I really wish to support what Meg Conkey said because I believe that the International Federation of Rock Art Researchers has been struggling with the question of ethics since they were based in Australia. There, the indigenous people of Australia had great spiritual feelings for their sacred sites and they influenced the people who were doing the research, such as Peter Ucko and other early researchers. What is happening now, from my perspective in New York where over the years I have done only library research on cave art, but have also worked on disarmament peace at the United Nations, is that indigenous people are coming more and more to the United Nations to try to survive, much less to keep preserve their cultural heritage. The more advanced scientific knowledge shown by France and Spain through the fact that their countries work to preserve the natural national heritage needs to be extended to the rest of the world, which is slowly loosing this heritage. It would help if some of you came to the United Nations to meet with the indigenous people that come from all over the world and support their cause and share their knowledge. But more than that, it seems that there is a need to digitize what we have at this moment and to share it with the world because the paintings will deteriorate since there still are wars, imperialist situations and global warming and all the other problems in the world. It is possible that scientists could do the kind of beautiful work that was shown by the Lascaux team that photographed the cave. We could allot some of the money available or find the money to at least have a central archive of the world heritage of subterranean shelters, rock shelters and prehistoric caves. It would help very much to share it with the whole rest of the world, especially with the youth that are very tuned into computers, iPods and imagery in general. Thank you.
62Mr. Jean Clottes
63Thank you Shirley. It is true that the world archives pose a major problem that we have been discussing for a very long time. This person has wanted to speak for a very long time.
64Ms. Joëlle Darricau
65I am the owner of the caves of Isturitz and Oxocelhaya, a dying breed, since the majority of these heritage sites are owned by the State, but resistant despite everything.
66I would like to thank Jean Clottes and Jean-Michel Geneste for inviting private cave owners because we are obviously very envious of all the resources that are made available to the caves that belong to the regions and are publicly managed.
67Thank you for giving us access to all this information. However, I would like to propose the idea of a second symposium, or a continuation, so that the owners or people in charge of managing the heritage of decorated caves could have a different perspective, after these two days, of the heritage for which they are responsible.
68It is clear that, after two days of a symposium of this kind, where we have the chance to meet specialists, when we go back home, we will see our caves differently. Meanwhile, we might still need some confirmed State aid since we are responsible for reducing the annual number of visitors to our sites, though obviously, from a management perspective, we are headed in a completely opposite direction from something that is profitable.
69I would like to highlight this point. Thank you to all of you for letting us get to know you and I am sure that you will help us too one day.
70Mr. Jean Clottes
71Thank you for your words. The principle of this symposium is that it is open, so it is quite normal for decorated cave owners to be invited, as well as guides and managers, etc.
72It is not because Lascaux is the property of the State that many resources have been allocated to it. The main reason is that Lascaux is still the most important decorated cave in the world, and the second reason is the application of the law to historic monuments. This is the guiding principle, independently of whether a site is the property of the State, regional or local government, or a private person.
73When a cave is threatened in any way, it is the law concerning historic monuments that applies. It is thanks to this law that we can protect this heritage, whoever the owners are. Madam?
74Ms. Armelle Bonis
75I am speaking on behalf of the Nouvelles de l’Archéologie [“Archaeology News”] journal, of which I am Editor-in-Chief, concerning the words of Mr. Gauchon, who has reminded me of something that was touched upon very briefly yesterday by Mr. Lastennet when he mentioned the carbon shaft found in the Axial Gallery below the Shaft of the Dead Man.
76I know very little about the mathematical, physical and biological sciences, and I have been truly very impressed by the quality of the presentations, whose data I have probably not completely understood. I probably understood even less the protocols that have been followed and the questions that have determined them, as well as the conclusions reached by the different researchers.
77We have not spoken much about the question of CO2. Has the research already gone beyond this or is it not scheduled? Roland Lastennet said that the CO2 comes from telluric strata. Was this known previously? Did this pocket exist when Lascaux was painted? Is it known whether or not there have been any other peak moments? Is the current level of emissions equivalent to the level of 18,000 years ago? Is it possible that there was any transference between the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere and the increase in CO2 in the telluric strata? I think this is linked to Mr. Gauchon’s question about the interaction between nature, culture and the fact that a cultural monument is a natural monument.
78Mr. Jean Clottes
79Who would like to respond?
80Mr. Michel Bakalowicz
81This is a point that I have discussed with Roland Lastennet. I have done a lot of work on the problem of CO2 in soils and caves. It seems to me that we still do not know everything, especially in the case of Lascaux. I think part of the problem is due to the fact that some of the soils present are very slightly permeable and accumulate the CO2 produced, and at times this CO2 spreads through the cave in a way that remains to be defined. This is a purely local effect that is found not only at Lascaux. There are some parts that are slightly ventilated where there may be slightly higher concentrations. I do not think we can say much more about this question, but of course it’s a classic problem almost everywhere in karst environments.
82Mr. Roland Lastennet
83Perhaps not with such high concentrations. This is after all one of the particularities of Lascaux. It is true that these concentrations have been monitored since the cave was discovered. There are sensors that monitor the CO2 trends in the Shaft of the Dead Man. The problem lies in determining the origin of this CO2. We know, mainly through carbon- 13 measures, that it is biogenic in origin, meaning that it comes from the soil.
84The problem was the high concentration in some parts. We think that the phenomenon of concentration takes place in the cave and its infill. Then, during its diffusion through the limestone massif, this CO2 gets trapped in some of the more airtight parts of the karst massif. This happens in the Shaft of the Dead Man.
85The variations that can be seen in the Shaft of the Dead Man are thus mostly related to the atmospheric pressure. When there are variations in the atmospheric pressure, there is also some variation in the level of this layer of CO2, which can invade the cave less than it did previously. This CO2 is now pumped and we no longer observe the natural operation of CO2 in Lascaux Cave. It is likely that 18,000 years ago this distribution did not exist at all, since the climatic conditions and temperature were very different. It was a different climatic period. With regard to knowing now what happened 18,000 years ago, it would be a little difficult for us to tell you.
86Mr. Jérôme Glaize
87At the end of these two days of work, we have grasped, on the one hand, the extraordinary complexity of what is happening at Lascaux and, on the other, the fact that it is no longer a local or national problem, but a global problem that particularly concerns all the researchers of the twelve nationalities who are in this room, and who clearly have many things to contribute to the debate.
88I would like to know what decisions will emerge from this seminar in terms of the structures, management, scientific supervision, frequency of meetings and cooperation among researchers. All these questions have been raised over the past two days. I would also like to ask what form will the proceedings of this symposium take?
89Mr. Michel Clément
90As Director of the Architecture and Heritage Directorate, and on behalf of the Ministry of Culture, I would like to take this opportunity to thank Jean Clottes and all the speakers. I think that any honest person or competent journalist today could not possibly write that the Ministry of Culture is hiding any questions. Today the transparency is complete. Over these two days, we have had the time to tackle the questions in depth, with the greatest freedom of expression.
91I will answer the question about following up this symposium. It was needed, and I think it will allow us to begin a new stage, especially in terms of research. This morning, we spoke of two kinds of deadlines that are before us. There are medium-term and short-term deadlines for all the research that has to be launched or developed in new domains. Of course there is also the short term, which is the most difficult since we can see that there is no simplistic solution or any proof that it could be put into practice in a simple manner. The authorities must take responsibility, advised by their scientific committee and their experts. The French Ministry of Culture will assume its responsibility within the international community, in a spirit of absolute transparency.
92With regard to the governance that Mr. Glaize mentioned, we have decided to simplify and clarify it. It is obvious that those responsible for the cave are the Ministry of Culture and its departments, including the DRAC of Aquitaine is present here. This is the department that represents the Ministry, under the leadership of Ms Albanel and myself, and for the supervisor for the administrative coordination of the actions taken. She has a conservationist under her working solely on this task, Ms. Muriel Mauriac, who is here. There is also the Centre National de Préhistoire and Jean-Michel Geneste who is, as he is also for Chauvet Cave, Director of the scientific and archaeological research conducted in the cave. I think we therefore have a system that now seems absolutely clear from our perspective. There is also the scientific committee presided by Marc Gauthier, whom I would like to thank for the quality of its work. The fact that all these questions can be raised today is due to the intensive work has been conducted for years. As the Minister has announced, we will now move on to amplifying the research while pursuing the dynamic that was previously put in place.
93The aspects announced by Ms. Albanel are also all clear: extension to include new members, extension at the international level and the repositioning of the committee, which in the future will be distinguished from representatives of the Ministry of Culture. In the months to come, we will have a new committee, which will be more independent of the authorities and the Ministry of Culture, but which will very obviously be in permanent dialogue with the Ministry’s departments to make and implement decisions.
94In the presentation of past elements, we have seen several that we could point to concerning the decisions that must be made: the great daily attention paid to this cave, which has been subject to very precise monitoring—every two weeks, we received the tables of indicator data in Paris.
95I think we will be increasingly careful with the protocols applied for implementing decisions through the realization of impact studies of the measures taken before they are implemented, followed by these measures, as recommended by UNESCO. Finally, a laboratory cave will be opened in order to test a range of measures. I think these are the principles that will guide us in the future after this symposium.
96The deadline for the publication may seem to be long, but the work will be put on-line in the weeks ahead, when the texts presented by the speakers become available. There might be further symposia of this kind in the coming years, to evaluate the situation and follow up on this one, for which I would like to express Ms. Albanel’s satisfaction for its realization.
97Mr. Bernard Cazeau
98I am President of the Dordogne General Council and would like to speak in that capacity. First of all, I would like to thank the Ministry of Culture, Ms. Albanel and Mr. Clément, for this symposium. It is very important in the face of everything that we have heard and read about the abandonment and pillage of Lascaux, about the fact that the Department of Dordogne and even archaeologists have neglected Lascaux or dealing with it in a… let’s say that they have sort of forgotten it. This symposium shows above all that the whole world is at the bedside of Lascaux. We are dealing with a new disease, for certain, but it is not the first one, and others have been conquered. After this symposium, I think we will find the solution that will allow Lascaux to become a cave with a completely stabilized atmosphere again, protected from all assaults—I must highlight the fact that Lascaux has not yet been destroyed, as I have heard tell in the Department of Dordogne. We must pay attention to the words we use.
99We all know (and Lascaux is an example) that one day we will have to stop entering into these caves in large numbers. We also know that, in order for the general public to benefit from these riches of humanity, we should develop facsimiles that will give them have a clear idea of what the people of this time did. This is Dordogne’s goal today. In 1982, we created Lascaux II in an environment that is not the cave but is close to it, with the Hall of the Bulls and the Axial Gallery. Last summer we inaugurated the Nave section, using contemporary methods, the original of which has now been damaged.
100We must develop and diffuse it, so this is why our second facsimile is transportable. It can be taken to the United States, Japan or South Africa. We must stop taking dozens and dozens of visitors into these caves. Even in Dordogne, the caves receive thousands of visitors every year, and are degraded. International professionals and States should take this into account. The era of temple merchants in real caves is over. We must now have educational approach, using modern means such as three dimensional images. This is the direction in which we are heading, and I am very happy to see that this symposium has already defined the stages. It has most of all allowed us to say that Lascaux is not dead.
101Ms. Laurence Léauté-Beasley
102Thank you for giving me the floor for a few moments. I would like to speak on behalf of the global community, which is very worried about Lascaux. I am President of the International Committee for the Preservation of Lascaux. We are the voice of everyone in the world who is worried about Lascaux. As we know, it is a World Heritage Site. The spirit of the place was spoken about a little while ago. It is true that this spirit of the place matters. It truly is a heritage site to which everyone feels they are the heirs.
103There is therefore an emotional investment in this site that must not be disregarded. Finally, this investment represents a uniting characteristic of humanity. Lascaux is something that affects all of us, from Aborigines to… to all of us, and we could ask ourselves why, but in any case it is something that affects us all, above and beyond culture, religion and millennia.
104It is this necessity which led to the existence of the committee that I chair and our primary mission, since we learned that Lascaux was not doing well, has been to warn the public and make it aware of what Lascaux represents. We have succeeded, thanks to UNESCO. It has responded remarkably to our appeal. UNESCO recognized that Lascaux was in danger. To say here that Lascaux is not in danger is not objectively true. The fact that there has been a symposium and that you have heard experts from all over the world proves this. These experts would not have come if Lascaux were not in danger. If this symposium exists today, it is also thanks to this realization that the Ministry of Culture now has. It has taken several years to reach this level of transparency. It took the voice of the international community, a campaign of letters and press articles to say what was happening at Lascaux.
105Lascaux is in danger, and this must not be denied. The Ministry has now realized this. In announcing her reform of the scientific committee, the Minister has expressed it well. This is an emergency. There is no point at all in saying that everything is fine and that we can continue in the same way as we have done up to now. No, we must change things.
106Mr. Jean Clottes
107I do not think that this is the right moment to launch into polemics.
108Ms. Laurence Léauté-Beasley
109This is not a controversy at all. I would simply like to finish by saying that I greatly appreciate what the Minister has said: that is to respond to an emergency by creating a special scientific task force. Her reform of the scientific committee goes in that direction, and I would like to pay tribute to her for that. This is what needs to be done in an emergency: put together a special task force. I hope that this is what will be done.
110Mr. Jean Clottes
111We will have three more speakers before we close.
112Mr. Gaël de Guichen
113Since I left Lascaux in 1969, I have continued to closely follow the evolution of the cave, particularly during the past seven years as a member of the scientific committee. It is interesting to remark that almost all the measures taken by this committee, be they geological, physicchemical or microclimatic, have confirmed those implemented by my predecessors and which I found on my desk in 1968. It is interesting to remember that at the time these measures were taken using much less sophisticated devices.
114Only a small general deviation in the temperature, of a few tenths of a degree, was measured and attributed to global warming. But regardless of its origin, it cannot explain the appearance of microorganisms on the ground or on the decorated walls.
115There is only one new possibility, which is the internal ventilation in the two cells: the Hall of the Bulls and the Axial Gallery. However, this is only a hypothesis—even if it could be of great importance—that must be tested by measures that I regret have not yet been taken.
116Allow me to remind you that in 1963, following the entry of massive numbers of visitors, it was a biological problem set off alarm bells and that the physico-chemical problem—with the hypothesis of calcite growth that was then raised—was to my knowledge never proven. In the same way, in 2001, following the completely unmonitored entry of workers, it is a much worse biological problem than that observed in 1963 that alerted us. Thanks to the efficient response of the LRMH, the impressive growth of microorganisms was stopped and today only a true connoisseur of the cave can detect the polluted zones.
117I would like to emphasize that the scientific committee found a cave in a very preoccupying state and left it in a much better one. It found a cave whose physico-chemical evolution was known and its knowledge was consolidated. It found a cave whose administrative protection was incomplete and left it in a much better situation. Over seven years, the different members—particularly scientists—learned to be patient and respectful of what nature was able to transmit to us across millennia. We finally have an association that succeeded in stimulating the committee by reminding us that this cave is one of the most, if not the most important heritage site of all of humanity.
118In conclusion, it is my pleasure to congratulate the president of the scientific committee, Mr. Gauthier, who under very difficult conditions has managed to improve a rather dramatic situation. We must also remember the essential role played by Ms. Pallot-Frossart and her LRMH team. Through her long experience in the very specific domain of heritage conservation, her global vision of the problems and her respect for the site, she has made a major contribution to our goal of saving the paintings and engravings of the cave.
119Mr. Yann-Pierre Montelle
120I think that the critical point here is that there is a small group of experts that are going to implement a program that is going to put forward the idea of experimentation not in situ but ex situ. We have to be aware of how positive this is and how incredible the potentials are for the “fixing up”, if you want to call it that, not just of Lascaux, but of many problems that are occurring, for example, in New Zealand. In New Zealand the rock art is found on limestone with a high rate of exfoliation. The caretakers, the Maori, have opted not to intervene with what they consider to be an inescapable taphonomic process. It is a position we need to respect. The other point that I would like to make is that nothing will be resolved until we take the “problem” in situ, study it ex situ and potentially apply what has been observed. Give the experts two years, let’s put them at the helm—we must have confidence in them—and I know all will be well.
121Mr. José Delgado Rodrigues
122We have heard presentations of remarkable quality and depth, and I am shocked to hear some people talk about a site in danger. I have tried during these discussions to think of a monument that does not have any problems. I had some trouble with this, but I have come up with a few. They are the ones that we know nothing about; they are not in danger. This is a paradox, because the more we know, the more problems we find. We know that this is how science works. The more something progresses, the more doubt there is. Is this really a problem? No, that’s life and that’s how we make progress.
123Is everything that we know how to do at Lascaux perfect? No. People say that there is room for improvement. Within the scientific committee, as in this room, there are two distinct groups: those who have to make the decisions and those who have an opinion. I am in the latter group, which is the easiest; the difficult thing is to make the decisions. This is something that must be improved, even within the scientific committee. Once again, that’s life, and we must improve, progress, find the way to gather the various data, even if it is very detailed, and find useful solutions for conserving and preserving the cave
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